Episode 46
Episode 46 | Spirits! Featuring Craig and Meredith Amick (Hollow Creek Distillery)
The episode provides an in-depth examination of the distillation process, shedding light on the historical significance of spirits in American culture. Beginning with an overview of the distilling process itself, Amii (Welcome to Wonder Land) and Barrett (The All About Nothing Podcast), alongside the Amicks, discuss the intricacies involved in converting grain mash into distilled spirits. They expand upon the fascinating etymology of the term 'spirits', linking it to the Latin word for breath, thereby underscoring the alchemical roots of distillation. The conversation seamlessly weaves through the historical narrative of alcohol production in the United States, detailing the transition from early European practices to the establishment of distilleries in the New World. The episode further explores the regulatory landscape of modern distilling, including the challenges and triumphs faced by microdistilleries. The Amicks recount their journey, emphasizing the importance of local sourcing and the community's role in supporting their craft. Overall, this episode serves as a celebration of not only the spirits themselves but also the rich tapestry of history and culture that surrounds their production.
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Transcript
Welcome to Wonderland, the podcast where I go down the rabbit hole to research things you may be curious about.
Speaker A:My name is Amie and I'll be your guide on this trip to Wonderland.
Speaker A:Today's topic may not be appropriate for all audiences.
Speaker A:Please refer to the show notes to determine if this episode is right for you.
Speaker A:Welcome back, my wonderlings, for an episode that I've had on my list that I've wanted to do for a while now.
Speaker A:If you follow me on social media, you're probably aware that I appreciate a tasty cocktail, and you may even know that some of my favorite alcohols to put in my cocktails are made locally at Hollow Creek Distillery in Leesville, South Carolina.
Speaker A:I'm excited to say that in this episode we're going to learn about what goes into the making of some of my favorite drinks and the history of distillation in the United States as well.
Speaker A:To prepare for this episode, I rode down to Hollow Creek Distillery in Leesville, South Carolina, where Barrett Gruber from the All About Nothing podcast and I got to sit down with Craig and Meredith Amick to discuss distilling at Hollow Creek Distillery.
Speaker B:Welcome to a very special episode of the All About Nothing podcast.
Speaker B:I'm here with Amie Bland, who is the hostess of the welcome to Wonderland podcast as well, also part of the big media conglomerate.
Speaker C:Actually, Barrett's here with me.
Speaker D:That's also true.
Speaker B:That's also true.
Speaker B:We are in the heart of Leesville, South Carolina, at the one and only Hollow Creek Distillery, where Southern tradition meets handcrafted spirits.
Speaker B:I'm joined today by our friends Craig at the far end over here, if you're watching on YouTube, Meredith sitting next to me.
Speaker B:We are going to be talking about Hollow Creek Distillery, the history of what it is that they've built here, because while it's not decades old, it definitely has some history.
Speaker B:We were talking about that prior to it, so welcome, Craig.
Speaker B:Welcome, Meredith, to our podcast.
Speaker D:Thank you.
Speaker A:The full interview and bonus tour will be available to view on YouTube or you can listen to the All About Nothing podcast, episode 262 to hear it in its entirety.
Speaker A:Since you're here, though, join me in the rabbit hole in true Wonderland fashion.
Speaker A:As we wonder about distilling.
Speaker B:I wonder, I wonder, I wonder, I.
Speaker E:Wonder, I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.
Speaker A:I wonder, I wonder.
Speaker A:As we usually do, let's broadly talk about what distilling is first.
Speaker B:What is distilling?
Speaker B:Distilling is the act of heating a mash into vapors that then condense back into liquid, leaving behind a high proof.
Speaker F:Alcohol, heating something up to extract a.
Speaker B:Byproduct out of it.
Speaker E:I think distilling is the process of basically heating up a liquid super high to filter out things.
Speaker E:I don't know exactly what things, but.
Speaker A:To oversimplify it, distillation is a process used to separate the individual components of a liquid mixture containing two or more chemically distinct substances.
Speaker A:This separation is achieved through the selective boiling of the mixture followed by condensation of the resulting vapors in an apparatus known as a still.
Speaker A:Many different types of liquids go through a distillation process.
Speaker B:Moonshine, bourbon, whiskey, gin, vodka.
Speaker B:I think sherries are also considered to be alcohol made through distilling.
Speaker F:Moonshine, bourbon, I don't know.
Speaker E:You can make whiskey, vodka, bourbon.
Speaker E:I think you can even distill water.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:Most of these alcohols are distilled.
Speaker A:And yes, Michelle was right when she suggested that water could also be distilled.
Speaker A:Additionally, crude oil is distilled so we can fuel our gas powered vehicles.
Speaker A:For the sake of this episode, however, we're going to limit our conversation about distilling specifically to distilled alcohols or spirits.
Speaker A:Also, this entire time I've been working on this episode, I've been curious about why it's called spirits.
Speaker A:So we're going down a quick side rabbit hole here.
Speaker A:The word spirit derives from the Latin word spiritus meaning breath.
Speaker A:And although no one knows for sure who started attributing it to liquor, historians widely agree that it begins popping up in usage by alchemists in the 14th century.
Speaker A:Camper English, a blogger on the alcohol professor and author of Doctors and Distillers has a fascinating article on the topic that I'll link on wtwlpod.com in which he surmises that alchemists using medicinal waters to heal humans, a concept of active reanimating energy from plants contained within distilled liquid medicine, the breath of life, if you will, is a reasonable origin of the term spirit.
Speaker A:Okay, so back on topic, distillation.
Speaker A:I think now is a good time for Craig and Meredith to tell us about the distillation process.
Speaker C:So we are here in Leesville, South Carolina, which is just outside of the Lexington area, not far from downtown Columbia.
Speaker C:We are at Hollow Creek Distillery and we are about to see where the magic is made.
Speaker E:All right guys, so it's a little bit wild in here today.
Speaker E:We had some bottle delivery that got a little jacked up on Friday.
Speaker F:I didn't think about.
Speaker F:We had a movie delivery.
Speaker E:I didn't think about that.
Speaker E:But that's all right.
Speaker F:Sorry.
Speaker E:This is what I get to see.
Speaker E:This is real life right here.
Speaker E:So I'll let Craig kind of talk you through some of the process and maybe I'll fill in some of the.
Speaker E:Some of the details.
Speaker E:All right.
Speaker F:So everything that's kind of interesting or most people are interested in, it's kind of right here in this corner.
Speaker F:There's a room there that's closed up.
Speaker F:I tell everybody it's just a boiler room.
Speaker F:There's no secrets hidden in there or anything else.
Speaker C:So there are absolutely secrets hidden in there.
Speaker F:Right.
Speaker C:Come on.
Speaker F:If you're really interested or you don't believe me, come on out.
Speaker F:It's a nice cleaver brook system, but that's it.
Speaker F:We'll let you see in there, as long as it's not hot.
Speaker F:And then over here is kind of the really fun part.
Speaker F:We've got cooker on the right, still on the left, and a couple of square fermenters over here.
Speaker F:And we'll talk through it a little bit here.
Speaker F:I always use just a straight corn mash as the example if you want to come in and talk about, you know, bourbon grain bills and different cook temperatures.
Speaker F:And I'll tell you, whatever.
Speaker F:There's no secrets here.
Speaker F:I mean, this.
Speaker F:So this is an 800 gallon batch system.
Speaker F:Each batch is a 800 gallon working volume.
Speaker F: tch for straight corn, we use: Speaker F:It's just a good rule of thumb two to one.
Speaker F:That's a good place to start.
Speaker E:And.
Speaker F:And then for the cooking process, kind of the objective here is to take all your grain and literally cook it to pull the starch out.
Speaker F:All right?
Speaker F:And then we're going to convert that starch to sugar.
Speaker F:So just think about starch as a whole bunch of individual sugars tied together.
Speaker F:So we got to pull them out of the grain, and then we have to break them apart in individual sugars.
Speaker F:That's what we need to ferment.
Speaker F:So to do that with corn, we heat our cooker up to 195.
Speaker F:We hold it there for, you know, 60 minutes.
Speaker F:And that's enough to pull all your starch out.
Speaker F:And then there's a couple of enzymes we use.
Speaker F:Since we're using 100% corn as the example, you have to use commercial enzymes because there's no malted barley.
Speaker F:So now you're looking at alpha amylase and gluco amylase.
Speaker F:That's the two we use.
Speaker F:All right, so like I told you, no secrets here.
Speaker C:So is there A automation to that process or does someone have to come in here and they're like, start the timer 60 minutes?
Speaker C:You know, like you're baking bread or something.
Speaker F:It's like you're baking bread.
Speaker F:It's just a timer on an iPhone.
Speaker F:That's it.
Speaker F:You can see this is very manual.
Speaker F:It's just a steam jacketed pot.
Speaker F:There's a temperature gauge on the front and steam line on the back.
Speaker F:Literally, you open the steam valve, start it heating up.
Speaker F:When you get to the temperature you want, you close the steam valve.
Speaker E: nd Craig Talked about putting: Speaker E:This is what it looks like.
Speaker E:It literally looks like gray almost.
Speaker E:It's ground really fine.
Speaker E:And I know we talked next door, but this is actually the corn is grown and milled by a guy that we went to high school right down the road.
Speaker E:So, you know, local, local, local.
Speaker B:Totally thought you were about to throw that at us.
Speaker E:I mean, you can see some of the corn dust on the side there.
Speaker E:That's what happens.
Speaker C:So how much corn dust goes in there again?
Speaker F:Sixteen hundred pounds.
Speaker C:And somebody does that like bucket by bucket or.
Speaker F:No.
Speaker F:So a little handful by narrative.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:One handful at a time.
Speaker E:1600 pounds.
Speaker F:We use totes.
Speaker F:So you scale sitting right over there.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker F: You weigh out: Speaker F:And you take forklift and hold it up over the manway and let it.
Speaker D:In nice and slow.
Speaker F:Don't go too fast.
Speaker C:And you all do that like it's.
Speaker F:It's typically us or Aaron Or Aaron.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker F:Aaron helps out too.
Speaker C:All right, so once we're done in this.
Speaker F:All right, so we're done in here.
Speaker F:And the next piece.
Speaker F:Piece is to get it transferred over to a fermenter and let it sit.
Speaker F:So it's really not highly technical.
Speaker F:You see the.
Speaker F:Essentially the pipe coming out with a valve on the bottom.
Speaker F:We just pump out of that tank into one of those fermenters over there behind this.
Speaker C:Just a hose goes from one to the other.
Speaker F:It's right.
Speaker F:It's two inch transfer hoses with a two inch pump.
Speaker D:That's it.
Speaker F:So you pump everything over there.
Speaker F:And your fermenter is where you're gonna add your yeast.
Speaker F:Get it mixed up really well and just let it go to work.
Speaker F:So the yeast, its job is to essentially eat the sugars that we made in the cooker and produce alcohol.
Speaker F:That's what we're looking for.
Speaker C:It's the good part.
Speaker F:It is the good part.
Speaker F:And CO2.
Speaker F:So it'll sit there and bubble.
Speaker C:So do you have to Make a decision before.
Speaker C:So once it comes out of here and go.
Speaker C:Or maybe the decision has to be made before it goes in here.
Speaker C:When do you decide whether it's going to be moonshine or vodka or bourbon.
Speaker F:Before it goes in there?
Speaker F:Because your grain bill changes, okay.
Speaker E:Depending on.
Speaker F:So if it's like white hot or, or a vodka, it's 100 corn.
Speaker F:That's what kind of the example is.
Speaker F:If it's bourbon, then your grain bill changes.
Speaker F:It's a mix of corn, rye and malted barley.
Speaker F:And now all of a sudden you have something other than corn, which is kind of like, I guess the workhorse it makes.
Speaker F:It's got a better starch conversion.
Speaker F:It makes more alcohol per pound.
Speaker F:So since we have rye in there, the total weight goes up.
Speaker F: We use: Speaker C:Oh, okay.
Speaker C:All right.
Speaker C:So now we are back into this machine and we're fermenting for.
Speaker F:Right, so you're fermenting.
Speaker F:I like a really slow fermentation.
Speaker F:It just my personal opinion, it makes better alcohol, makes smoother alcohol, a little bit sweeter.
Speaker F:Flavor profile, kind of industry standards, about three days during the winter when it's nice and cold, we like to slow.
Speaker D:It down to six days.
Speaker F:It makes scheduling easier.
Speaker F:But you do have to ferment at pretty low temperatures to do that.
Speaker F:But it will firm it up to about 10 and a half percent alcohol by volume.
Speaker F:And then the same 2 inch transfer pump out of the fermenter into the still.
Speaker F:Now, stills are what everybody gets excited about in this industry.
Speaker F:And I get it, they're beautiful.
Speaker F:This is not where you make good alcohol, okay?
Speaker F:All you do is reveal what you have done.
Speaker F:So you either have good alcohol in your batch or you don't.
Speaker F:Now, there are some things you can do to screw up good alcohol in a still, but you cannot improve what you've made.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker F:If it's bad going in, it's going to be bad alcohol coming out.
Speaker F:If it's good going in, you got a shot.
Speaker F:So we run a hybrid still.
Speaker F:It's 800 gallon pot on the bottom, has a four plate column on top, small heat exchanger on top of the columns called deflag, and then the main condenser is on the left.
Speaker F:So really what you're doing, you get your mash pumped in, you heat, you're still up.
Speaker F:You have to get above 173 degrees where alcohol boils.
Speaker F:And then you'll start to get your alcohol to boil up out of your pot.
Speaker F:Go up through your column and you'll start to get alcohol, come out of the condenser.
Speaker F:And then over the course of the run, as you decrease the alcohol concentration in your pot, your boiling point actually goes up and you can kind of track how far along you are on the run just by the temperature of the pot.
Speaker F:And you'll cut it off before you get to 212 degrees because you're running out of alcohol.
Speaker F:That's the boiling point of water.
Speaker F:You're getting close to just having water left.
Speaker F: So we started out with: Speaker F:That's 150 gallons at 100 proof.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker F:If you're talking in bourbon terms, it's, you know, roughly two, two and a half barrels of bourbon.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:So that's a lot of work.
Speaker F:It is a lot of work.
Speaker E:A lot of work for.
Speaker E:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker E:Now, one thing I think you didn't say is, so distillation is essentially anytime it goes from a liquid to a vapor, that is a distillation step.
Speaker E:And so the first distillation really comes out of the pot because it's going from a liquid in the pot up into a vapor.
Speaker E:And then each one of those little bubble plates that looks kind of like a submarine, each one of those, if they're open, that's another distillation.
Speaker E:So if you put something in there and then keep all those open, it would be five times distilled coming out.
Speaker E:Now something like a whiskey or a bourbon, you're only wanting two or three times distilled.
Speaker E:You know, something like a vodka, it's going to have to be distilled more than one time through this, more than five times.
Speaker E:So our vodka actually goes through twice.
Speaker E:So 10 times distilled to get that.
Speaker F:So you get into all kind of legal requirements.
Speaker F:If you're making whiskey, anything within the big whiskey category, you have a maximum proof of 160.
Speaker F:So you can never distill above 160 and label something, you know, bourbon or anything else.
Speaker F:In a whiskey category, if you're making vodka, the proof requirement is you have to distill above 190 proof.
Speaker F:So we're talking 95% pure ethanol, which you're kind of shooting for the moon, essentially.
Speaker F:If we had the intention of being a vodka house when we, when we bought this still, this is not the still I would have.
Speaker F:It does turn out it makes really good vodka, but you do have to run through twice.
Speaker F:If we, you know, ferment 100, 100% corn mash, get up to about 10 and a half percent.
Speaker F:We run it through the still with all four plates on, and we run it fairly slow and, you know, do all the right things.
Speaker F:We can get up to about 184 proof.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker F:Which is close, but it's not.
Speaker F:So you collect all that out of four or five runs, you put it back in the pot, you run it through again.
Speaker F:Now with all four plates on the second time, you've got.
Speaker F:Got 10 times distilled alcohol, and we.
Speaker D:Can get up to about 191.
Speaker C:Okay, so you got there.
Speaker F:We got there.
Speaker E:We got there.
Speaker C:So when you take it out of.
Speaker C:So you said you went from here to here and then from here back to here or no.
Speaker F:Yeah, from here to there.
Speaker E:Square tank and then top guy.
Speaker C:Square tank.
Speaker C:Square Tank.
Speaker E:Tank's kind of in the back.
Speaker F:Now we use open fermentation.
Speaker F:It's not.
Speaker F:If you're.
Speaker F:If you're making beer or wine, you would never do this.
Speaker F:But for spirits, you know, we ferment pretty fast, three to six days.
Speaker F:And then we're going to put the fermented product through a still, clean it up, and just get the alcohol we're after.
Speaker F:So you can get away with open fermentation.
Speaker F:Actually, I kind of like it when you've got both fermenters running.
Speaker F:You pull up outside and you can smell the sweetness.
Speaker E:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker E:Especially store.
Speaker E:And it's like.
Speaker C:So when it comes out of here, then if it's going to be a bourbon, it's going into one of the barrels, I assume.
Speaker F:Right.
Speaker C:And if it's going to be moonshine or if it's going to be vodka, where does it go?
Speaker E:Either into one of these kind of plastic totes here.
Speaker E:It's got to go into something inert so that it's not going to take on any flavor.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:So a tote or a drum, and then if it's, you know, unflavored, it will just go as is.
Speaker E:We proof it, get it ready to go.
Speaker E:If it's flavored, we'll add a flavor.
Speaker C:So those currently with the liquid in it have some sort of.
Speaker E:Some sort of.
Speaker E:Yep.
Speaker E:Some sort of.
Speaker E:Whether it's a vodka or a corn whiskey or a moonshine or.
Speaker C:And so then we go over to the barrels and where the barrels come from.
Speaker F:We buy barrels from Speyside Cooperage, specifically their facility in Atkins, Virginia, which nobody.
Speaker D:Is watching this from Atkins because there's Nobody there.
Speaker F:You're never going to make it to Atkins, Virginia, unless you go to Speyside Cooperage.
Speaker B:You'd be surprised how popular we are in Czechoslovakia.
Speaker C:There's some cows out in Virginia.
Speaker F:So hats off to them.
Speaker F:I think they make some of the best barrels in the world.
Speaker C:Can you reuse the barrels?
Speaker F:You can, but you can't call the resultant spirit bourbon.
Speaker C:What do you have to call it?
Speaker F:You can call it whiskey.
Speaker F:Okay, bourbon is it.
Speaker F:One of the requirements is new American white oak, so you get a single use out of the barrel.
Speaker C:Talk to us about the char.
Speaker E:So let's talk about that.
Speaker E:That's my favorite part.
Speaker E:Come on over.
Speaker E:I'm a science nerd, so come on over this way.
Speaker E:So everything that comes out of a still should always look like this.
Speaker E:If it does, I know on moonshiners they've had some that have come out different colors.
Speaker E:That's for tv.
Speaker E:Because if it doesn't come out looking like this, you got real problems.
Speaker E:Everything should come out looking like.
Speaker E:Looking like.
Speaker E:Looking clear like that.
Speaker E:I always use this example again as a science nerd, but not a great example because we're doing something consumable here.
Speaker E:But think about gasoline.
Speaker E:Gasoline is clear, and gasoline is a petroleum distillate.
Speaker E:So you put this black, ooey, gooey substance in something that's way more fancy than our still, but it is essentially the same thing, and it comes out looking clear.
Speaker E:And so that gasoline is a petroleum distillate.
Speaker E:So anytime you put some sort of product in a still and you distill it, really what's coming back should look clear like this.
Speaker E:Now, there's a couple of bottles up there that got hidden up there at some point, but.
Speaker E:So one was one year, two year, three year.
Speaker E:But this is the four year.
Speaker E:So you can see after four years how much color it's pulled out of the wood here.
Speaker E:So to be a bourbon in the United States, you have to be aged in an American white oak barrel.
Speaker E:And so this is a white oak barrel char level.
Speaker E:I believe this is a three, and this may be a four.
Speaker E:But you can see.
Speaker E:And this one's a little dusty because it's set here, but.
Speaker E:But they call this alligator skin.
Speaker E:And you can see why.
Speaker E:So this is a stave that was actually inside of a barrel that they busted back apart because it wasn't going to seal or whatever.
Speaker E:So this one never had alcohol in it.
Speaker E:Now this one is the same char level, but it had alcohol in it.
Speaker E:And so you can see the little Crumblies have broken off.
Speaker E:And that would be inside the barrel.
Speaker E:But that's very helpful, right, because it helps you age.
Speaker E:It helps get that flavor and that color out of the char.
Speaker E:So to be a bourbon, you have to be aged in a charred oak barrel.
Speaker E:Now this guy has this dark line here.
Speaker E:That is the soap line.
Speaker E:That's how deep the alcohol is soaked into the wood.
Speaker E:But on this side, this is the true test.
Speaker E:Do you know what happened here?
Speaker B:Came all the way out.
Speaker B:So it was weeping, it leaked.
Speaker E:That's exactly right.
Speaker E:So this guy had one on top of him.
Speaker E:You can see the drips that he had one on top of him that would have dripped.
Speaker E:That's why he's got drips down him anytime.
Speaker E:You see there's some spots on the floor there.
Speaker E:That's where bourbon barrels have set and dripped.
Speaker E:But there's no kind of sealant on these barrels.
Speaker E:It's just the wood kind of swells and seals itself.
Speaker E:It is.
Speaker E:The bourbon barrel should be self healing.
Speaker E:Every now and then you have one that might continue to leak and then you're gonna have to swap it out.
Speaker C:So I've never bought any bourbon that's got chunks of char in it.
Speaker C:How does that happen?
Speaker E:So you have to filter out those char pieces as you.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker C:And y' all do that here too?
Speaker C:We do, we do like with Giant Sea.
Speaker E:So we've got kind of this filter housing that it will house houses, you know, some really fine filters.
Speaker C:So that it.
Speaker E:And just set that basically it plumbs in line with.
Speaker E:With your bottling box, I guess, kind of your bottling heads.
Speaker E:And then with where the alcohol comes out of it.
Speaker E:And so that that filter just plumbs in line.
Speaker C:So it just would have looked like.
Speaker E:This, would have looked like that.
Speaker E:But it's.
Speaker E:All those little pieces have broken off now.
Speaker E:So our hi Cotton and our William are both aged in a charred barrel just like this.
Speaker E:William is what they call toasted barrel finished.
Speaker E:And this guy is actually a toasted barrel.
Speaker E:I know it doesn't look like much, but this one actually gets hotter on the inside than the charred ones do.
Speaker E:Because this is done with infrared.
Speaker E:That's another question that I get is do we char our barrels here or do they come to us charred?
Speaker E:They come to us charred.
Speaker E:Our insurance company appreciates us not lighting things on fire.
Speaker C:We've got enough labor stuff going on.
Speaker E:So power goes out.
Speaker E:Candles light a barrel on fire.
Speaker E:So but this guy is done with infrared.
Speaker E:So this gets so hot and you may, I don't know about on the camera, but I probably see it with your eye here.
Speaker E:There are a couple of sparklies on here.
Speaker E:If I kind of move it around, those sparklies are where the wood has gotten so hot that the sugars have crystallized out of it.
Speaker E:And so three toasted barrel finish bourbons theoretically are a little sweeter because you have that little bit of toast, a little bit of sugar.
Speaker E:So the one that we're tasting that's almost nine years old is a toasted barrel finished William, do you know when it went in the second barrel?
Speaker F:That second barrel is toasted and charred.
Speaker F:So it's a little different.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker E:But do you know?
Speaker E:Do you know?
Speaker F:I haven't recorded.
Speaker E:Okay.
Speaker E:I don't know.
Speaker C:So sometimes things go from one barrel to another while they're still in the process.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker E:So the William does that.
Speaker E:The William will be in two different barrels.
Speaker E:The high cotton is just in one.
Speaker C:So that's the difference between single barrel and double barrel?
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker E:Yes, yes.
Speaker F:So double barrel is just two barrels?
Speaker F:Two barrels, Right.
Speaker C:I didn't know.
Speaker C:I just drank the stuff.
Speaker C:I don't know anything about it yet.
Speaker C:I'm learning.
Speaker C:All right, so we have it in barrels.
Speaker C:You finally decided spin the barrel, however long you're going to leave it in.
Speaker C:Do you have kind of a minimum time that you're leaving it in?
Speaker C:You have to, right?
Speaker F:To label it.
Speaker D:Straight bourbon whiskey has to be a.
Speaker F:Minimum of four years.
Speaker F:Unless you want to put an age.
Speaker D:Statement on the bottle.
Speaker F:You can say straight bourbon Whiskey and put two years and sell it as young as 10 years.
Speaker E:Between two and four years, it has to age.
Speaker D:Don't do that.
Speaker B:Don't do that.
Speaker A:That's patience.
Speaker C:Just to sit here and look at these barrels and be like, in a half a decade, right, we'll get a date.
Speaker F:That's why you sell moonshine.
Speaker A:That's great.
Speaker F:You gotta pay bills for that.
Speaker E:The bank does not.
Speaker F:Right?
Speaker E:The bank doesn't want to hear, man, we're gonna be making some money.
Speaker E:But you just gotta wait.
Speaker C:Just put one of the barrels in their office and be like, look, that's your.
Speaker C:That's your payment.
Speaker C:So, all right, so then once you do.
Speaker C:Do you tap a barrel like you do a keg?
Speaker C:How do you get it out?
Speaker C:Like, what's that process called?
Speaker D:You just dump it.
Speaker C:Dump it.
Speaker C:Okay, so once you decide you.
Speaker C:Does the top come off then?
Speaker C:Or you come out the little hole?
Speaker F:Come out the little hole.
Speaker C:Okay, so you put some sort of something on it and it comes out into.
Speaker E:We'll kind of roll it over on it, right?
Speaker E:We'll kind of.
Speaker E:Yeah, roll it over.
Speaker F:There's a couple of different ways you can do it if you're just doing it.
Speaker F:If you're not in a huge hurry and nobody's watching.
Speaker F:So you're not worried about like a sexy video or anything.
Speaker F:You can just siphon it out.
Speaker F:You can pump it out.
Speaker F:We've got a little one inch pump that's, you know, okay for high proof spirits.
Speaker C:And then it goes into one of these things again.
Speaker C:Or it goes into.
Speaker F:It goes into one of those.
Speaker F:Just so that we can get an accurate proof and adjust that proof to whatever.
Speaker F:We're going to bottle it out and then bottle it.
Speaker C:That's exciting.
Speaker F:But if you want to make really good video, you dump the barrel, which is literally just.
Speaker F:You take the plug out of it, the bung, and you roll it over and you watch the bourbon dump out.
Speaker D:And you video that because people go nuts over it.
Speaker C:What is it dump into?
Speaker C:Like you have to dump it on top of these or something because I have to imagine this is heavy.
Speaker F:Yeah, it's.
Speaker F:It's pretty heavy.
Speaker E:And even empty, they're heavy, which I. I know you moved one around a little bit, but even empty.
Speaker E:But then think of it.
Speaker E:So let's say, let's make easy math.
Speaker E:Everybody thinks they're 55 gallons, but they're actually 53 gallon barrels.
Speaker E:Bourbon barrels are 53 and not 55.
Speaker B:But swelling of the wood or.
Speaker D:I don't know why.
Speaker E:That's just industry standard, just what the industry chose years ago.
Speaker E:So easy math.
Speaker E:50 gallons water weighs a little over 8 pounds a gallon.
Speaker E:She just knows a little different.
Speaker B:Jerry Maguire.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:The human head weighs eight pounds.
Speaker E:Oh, see, I didn't know that.
Speaker E:Right, There you go.
Speaker E:But so you know, easy math.
Speaker E:These things are 400 ish pounds of just liquid.
Speaker E:And then.
Speaker E:Yeah, I mean, I don't know because I don't move these around, but they're.
Speaker E:I can't move one empty around.
Speaker E:So I don't know.
Speaker D:They're not light.
Speaker E:They're, you know, I don't know if they're.
Speaker E:Are they £100?
Speaker E:I don't.
Speaker D:They're not quite.
Speaker C:So you don't even need a gym membership or anything.
Speaker C:You just start.
Speaker E:Just start moving barrels around.
Speaker E:It's our own CrossFit.
Speaker C:Anyway, then we're in bottles and then y' all are selling.
Speaker C:So I think that's probably the whole thing then.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker E:That's it pretty much.
Speaker A:So now that we have A basic understanding of the distillation process.
Speaker A:Let's talk a little about why people began distilling alcohol in the first place.
Speaker A:So the answer to this seems a bit like a nice BlackBerry bramble.
Speaker A:Muddled.
Speaker A:It's fairly well documented that humans likely accidented into wine.
Speaker A:Fermentation, after all, is a very natural process.
Speaker A:To distill alcohol, however, is a very intentional process.
Speaker A:Edward Slingerhan, a philosophy professor at the University of British Columbia and author of How We Sipped, Danced and Stumbled Our Way Into Civilization, tells us that the act of distillation has been known to humans for hundreds of years.
Speaker A:Even Aristotle described the process.
Speaker A:Our ancestors understood the principles of distillation, but the technology to distill alcohol on any kind of scale wasn't available until around the 16th and 17th centuries.
Speaker A: of Distillation in Germany in: Speaker A:This is Professor Singerland discussing the process.
Speaker G:Yeah, so liquor, liquor or spirits refers to something that's been distilled.
Speaker G:So you've basically extracted the alcohol out of the mixture and made it into a pure form.
Speaker G:And once you do that, you've got like 90.
Speaker G:You can get like some vodkas could be like 90 something percent ABV.
Speaker G:So that's crazy strong.
Speaker G:Yeah.
Speaker G:Distilled liquors weren't because the concept's really simple.
Speaker G:Aristotle described distillation, but technologically it's really hard to do because you got to be able, you have to have metallurgy.
Speaker G:You need to be able to heat liquids and keep them at a certain temperature.
Speaker G:That makes sense.
Speaker G:They're pressurized.
Speaker G:It's really, it's actually kind of dangerous.
Speaker G:So in prohibition, when you people created stills at home, it was like early 20th century version of meth labs.
Speaker G:They were constantly exploding and people were getting scalded with hot liquid because it's really dangerous.
Speaker G:So it's hard to do.
Speaker G:So we only mastered it.
Speaker G:I mean, I'm telling an evolutionary story.
Speaker G:So my story begins 10 million years ago with primate ancestors who adapted to alcohol.
Speaker G:And just so 10 million years ago, about 20,000 years ago to 13,000 years ago, we start making alcohol seriously, not just relying on fruit lying around that has some alcohol in it.
Speaker G: ation happens probably around: Speaker G:So that sounds like a long time ago, but really evolutionarily, it's yesterday.
Speaker A:Distillation was an effective way to use excess grains at the End of a harvest that was easily stored and transported.
Speaker A:Distilled alcohol also had the benefit of being able to be stored for long periods of time without risking the integrity of the alcohol.
Speaker A:In fact, some liquors are more revered the longer they age.
Speaker A:While we were at Hollow Creek, Barrett and I got to sample a bourbon that is just shy of nine years old.
Speaker C:The barrel is here, right?
Speaker E:Yes, the barrel.
Speaker C:Do you want to show us the barrel?
Speaker F:Bottom left.
Speaker E:We can actually do some magic if you want to do any magic.
Speaker D:We can.
Speaker F:We can probably.
Speaker E:We can probably feed out of that a little bit.
Speaker E:If you guys care to taste really.
Speaker F:Old South Carolina bourbon Now do.
Speaker E:Yep.
Speaker E:And we can.
Speaker E:We've got to talk about the aging process at some point, but yeah, you certainly want to get.
Speaker E:There's a tag there on the date on 9, 17, 16.
Speaker E:Here, let me see if I can pull.
Speaker C:And it's got the proofs on it.
Speaker C:So these tags here tell you the barrel number.
Speaker D:And I think Meredith's going to get us some glasses.
Speaker F:Let me grab a thief.
Speaker E:I tell you what.
Speaker E:While he's grabbing.
Speaker C:There's so many dishes.
Speaker E:While he's grabbing the thief.
Speaker E:Let me.
Speaker E:This is like one of my favorite.
Speaker C:Parts over here is thief.
Speaker C:The official term.
Speaker A:It is a thief.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker E:It's called a whiskey thief.
Speaker E:So.
Speaker E:Well, do you want to do that first before we talk about how.
Speaker E:Yeah, we can do that first.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:So why is this called a thief?
Speaker C:I mean, I guess because it's getting ready to steal from it.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:That is literally a whiskey thief.
Speaker E:That is like the real deal.
Speaker E:Legit copper out of here.
Speaker E:I got you some glasses.
Speaker C:So this is a copper rod of some kind that goes in there and then it just.
Speaker E:So it almost acts like a straw.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker F:So this is highly technical.
Speaker F:It's basically a big straw.
Speaker F:It's a copper tube that has it next down to a small opening on the bottom.
Speaker F:It's got a small opening on top.
Speaker B:It only becomes super technical when you put your thumb on top.
Speaker E:That's right, that's right, that's right.
Speaker F:So this is how it works.
Speaker F:This is.
Speaker F:Come on over.
Speaker E:There you go.
Speaker E:Okay.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:Cool.
Speaker E:And there's only so much 120 something proof bourbon.
Speaker E:We need it this time of morning.
Speaker E:There we go.
Speaker E:So it's super dark.
Speaker E:You can see the real dark color.
Speaker E:You can smell.
Speaker C:You'll be able to do this with one hand.
Speaker E:We'll see.
Speaker E:You can see the leg.
Speaker E:So what.
Speaker E:You know, people always ask about what's the proper.
Speaker E:I had somebody yesterday at the bar asking, what's the proper way to drink some kind of liquor?
Speaker E:And I said, well, really, again, we're irreverent.
Speaker E:We, you know, do what you wish.
Speaker E:But Glen, these are Glencara and Glen, my Southern is gonna say Glencairn.
Speaker E:But these are kind of the official whiskey glass, right?
Speaker E:So it necks down so you can get a good sniff out of it.
Speaker E:You can roll it around and see the legs on it that they call it as it's running down your glass.
Speaker E:It's definitely got legs, which means it's high proof.
Speaker E:When it went in the barrel, it was 124.1.
Speaker E:So it's that or more probably at this point.
Speaker D:Yeah, it's probably over that now.
Speaker E:It's probably over that now.
Speaker E:But, yeah, you can smell, you know, to me, I get a cherry note on this one.
Speaker C:It's got something to it, something sweet.
Speaker E:Sort of sweet note.
Speaker E:And I don't know, but that's on the nose.
Speaker E:I haven't tasted it.
Speaker E:And maybe it's caramel or it's terrible.
Speaker D:I'll take it.
Speaker C:Maybe it is caramel.
Speaker C:It's sweet.
Speaker E:There's a really sweet.
Speaker E:But you can get multiple.
Speaker D:Kind of a sweet cherry.
Speaker D:You get plenty of oak, nice smoky note to it, a little bit of tobacco, especially on the nose for me.
Speaker A:Because distilled alcohols were so easy to store and transport, it made sense that as colonialism was running rampant and that people settled into new lands, that they brought those practices with them to the United States.
Speaker A:So when do you think people in the US Began distilling alcohol?
Speaker E:I think distilling started pretty early in the US or it could be very off.
Speaker E: I was thinking: Speaker F:Maybe during Prohibition as an alternative way to make or procure alcohol.
Speaker B:I think it's likely that distilling of alcohol goes back as far as when people began settling in the United States from Europe, because there were sometimes harvests that yielded more grains or more corn than necessary.
Speaker B:And they brought that process over from Europe because it was something that they did there as well.
Speaker A:So if you've been following along, then it's no surprise that the answer to this is that Americans have been distilling alcohol basically from the moment they stepped off the boat.
Speaker A:In the early days, rum was the distilled spirit of choice.
Speaker A:Sugar plantations were productive, and rum, made from a byproduct of sugar production called molasses, was an effective way to preserve surplus grain.
Speaker A:It was distilled, bottled, and used as a form of currency.
Speaker A: In the: Speaker A: as established in Virginia in: Speaker A:But it's likely that it was producing a corn liquor developed by an English settler by the name of George Thorpe, who discovered that he could make a mash with the corn grown by the indigenous people in place of the barley used in Europe.
Speaker A:From that time, colonial Americans really embraced using the corn mash to make what we would now call whiskey.
Speaker A:And while I didn't think I was going to be talking about George Washington in another episode, remember we talked about him growing hemp in the episode on marijuana.
Speaker A:It turns out that our first president also had his hand in the whiskey barrel.
Speaker A: unt Vernon in Virginia in the: Speaker A:Washington had originally erected stills to make rum, but at the suggestion of his Scottish plantation manager, James Anderson, he planted rye to make whiskey instead.
Speaker A:George would become the biggest producer of distilled spirits of his time, making up to 11,000 gallons of whiskey a year at Mount Vernon.
Speaker A:For a reference point, let's hear what the amex have to say about the volume of spirits.
Speaker B:What is it that.
Speaker B:So it's Hollow Creek distillery is a micro distillery is what it's described as.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:What is the difference between, like, a distillery and a micro distillery?
Speaker B:Is it literally just size?
Speaker D:Yes, legally is purely volume produced, and it's two different permits.
Speaker D:So in South Carolina, there's a micro distillery permit.
Speaker D:That's what we operate under.
Speaker D:It is a much lower licensing fee, and we're allowed.
Speaker D:It's a pretty generous limit for a micro.
Speaker D:Is it like 325,000 gallons a year or something like that?
Speaker D:It's a big number.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker D:Much more than we produce.
Speaker D:And then the only difference between that and just a big distillery is really the size and the volume.
Speaker D:So the other permit is called a manufacturer's permit, and it's not volume limited, but it's also 10 times.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:10 times the permit fee.
Speaker E:20 times more expensive, actually.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker D:Your math's better than mine.
Speaker B:I get the impression someone's the accountant and.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And management is right.
Speaker D:I just make whiskey.
Speaker D:That's it, man.
Speaker C:He's just here for the whiskey.
Speaker B:That's great.
Speaker A: the most whiskey in the late: Speaker A:Farm distilleries in the Appalachian region as well as in Pennsylvania popped up and provided a vital local commodity.
Speaker A: Hamilton introduced a bill in: Speaker A: elt unfairly targeted, and in: Speaker A:This uprising would be called the whiskey rebellion and would eventually have to be squelched.
Speaker A: militia, in: Speaker A: cess crops right up until the: Speaker A:And a lot of times when we start thinking about moonshine, we often think of prohibition.
Speaker A:However, while the Pennsylvanian farmers rose up against the distilled spirit tax, the Appalachian farmers took their operations underground, distilling at night by the light of the moon.
Speaker A:Hence moonshine to evade the tax.
Speaker A:For folks in the rural south, moonshine was a symbol of resistance against the government and a way for poor people to make a living.
Speaker A:Moonshine, as opposed to its cousin whiskey, was also able to be made more quickly.
Speaker B:What is typically, as far as, like the products that you all make?
Speaker B:I know that there's probably a varying amount of time that it takes as far as the process.
Speaker B:But like, what is your shortest, what is your shortest time product?
Speaker B:What is your longest time product?
Speaker D:So any sort of white whiskey, so, or white spirit, whether we're talking about vodka or, you know, a corn whiskey that we use to make white hot whiskey, cinnamon flavored whiskey, you're looking at it can be as short as four days.
Speaker D:If you've got, you know, a day to cook, a three day ferment, a day to distill, maybe you're at five days.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker D:And then bourbon.
Speaker D:Right now we're selling almost everything at just under six years.
Speaker D:So we'll call it five year bourbon.
Speaker D:Before long, we'll cross that six year mark with most of our bourbon products.
Speaker D:And we do have one barrel that is, it'll turn nine in September.
Speaker B:And that was intentional?
Speaker D:Yes.
Speaker B:So in my head, I think somebody's preparing for some sort of a 10th anniversary or something.
Speaker D:I haven't decided yet if it's gonna make it to 10.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker D:It will make it to nine because we are very close.
Speaker D:But I'm here to tell you it is very good bourbon.
Speaker D:So it's gonna find some bottles here before long.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:He's been sipping.
Speaker C:The barrel's empty now.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker E:We'll have one bottle to release.
Speaker D:At some point we have to sell it or it's going to be gone anyway.
Speaker B:We were going to call that the angel's share.
Speaker D:Right, right.
Speaker A:And while moonshine was definitely around before prohibition, there was a significant increase in illegal distilling.
Speaker A:The physical terrain of the Appalachians made it difficult for law enforcement to monitor.
Speaker A:And moonshiners distilled their liquors at night and in the woods, making it even more difficult to be caught.
Speaker A:After prohibition ended, many people continued to illegally make moonshine due to federal regulations, even up into the modern era.
Speaker E:I like to give this perspective.
Speaker E:So if I stand here, this kind of gives you a little bit of a perspective.
Speaker E:But these are 800 gallon tanks.
Speaker E:So the one who taught us everything we know and his dad that made the looker back in the woods, five miles off the creek from here, they had two 600 gallon tanks like this.
Speaker E:So 800, 600, you know, and somehow the law didn't notice in the woods, never got caught.
Speaker E:And so they did have one blown up by the feds back at.
Speaker E:If you could be caught in the act, you can be charged with a lot more than just owning the equipment.
Speaker E:Same thing we talked about in there, right?
Speaker E:Owning the equipment is illegal, but if you can be caught in the act of making alcohol, it's a lot more charges.
Speaker E:And so many, many years ago, probably 50 years ago or more, they were walking through the woods, saw something out of place, and they didn't go back to that one because they knew the feds had found it, something was out of place.
Speaker E:And about a week later, that one got blown up in the woods.
Speaker E:They had a second one in a different location they could still use, but they never got caught.
Speaker E:So I just like to show this as perspective to, you know, this was a way of life in this area back, you know, 50 years ago.
Speaker E:And so that's the way people put food on the table, money in their pockets.
Speaker A:And today, even when it is legal to make spirits, to open a distillery legally, anyways, still has a lot of red tape.
Speaker A:Barrett and I asked the Amex about how they got started.
Speaker B:So first of all, we were.
Speaker B:We were talking about earlier, before we started recording, sort of how this all started.
Speaker B:Like, what was.
Speaker B:What was the.
Speaker B:What was the history behind it?
Speaker B:Where did it all start?
Speaker B: The: Speaker D:We're going way back.
Speaker B:How did it get started for you all?
Speaker E:So where did we start?
Speaker E:So I always say we had a good family friend, and he was actually the first one in South Carolina to put in a microdistillery license.
Speaker E:And he got just A little ways in and saw all the paperwork.
Speaker E:But he was a moonshiner in this area about five miles up the creek, literally from where we sit.
Speaker E:And he and his dad made moonshine in the backwoods.
Speaker E: when he saw the law change in: Speaker E:And so Craig thought it was a great idea.
Speaker E:He didn't want to let it go.
Speaker E:At that time we had a six month old baby.
Speaker E:And so Craig came to me and said, I want to build a distillery.
Speaker E:And I said, I don't care what you want to do, I just want to sleep.
Speaker E:And so he called me a week?
Speaker E:Yes.
Speaker E:And from there then he went to Lamar.
Speaker E:Guy's name was Lamar.
Speaker E:He went to Lamar and he said, lamar, I'll build it, I'll license it, you come run the steel, teach me everything you know.
Speaker E:And we did a year's worth of research, two years worth of paperwork.
Speaker E:We have been open ten and a half months.
Speaker E:Ten and a half years almost exactly.
Speaker E:So that six month old baby turned 14 about two weeks ago.
Speaker E:And here we are.
Speaker B:Hence why you drink in the morning.
Speaker E:Yes, hence why it's 10am and we have alcohol in front of us.
Speaker A:At Hollow Creek they distill moonshine, vodka, whiskey and bourbon in a variety of different flavors.
Speaker A:They make delicious alcohol and they have the awards to prove it.
Speaker C:You guys have been doing this, like you said, for a little over a decade.
Speaker C: And I know in the early: Speaker C:So I have on here, although I can look at the wall, I guess, and read it, I have on here that you guys have won gold medals.
Speaker A:For the high cotton straight bourbon and.
Speaker C:The low water vodka, which, by the.
Speaker A:Way, guys, that is my favorite, goes.
Speaker C:In all my drinks.
Speaker C:At the Los Angeles International Spirits competition, gold medals for the William Allen small batch bourbon and the low water vodka at the San Francisco South Best spirits, New York International Spirits, Best of Columbia, like all of the years.
Speaker C:So when did that really kind of turn from you?
Speaker C:So you spent a year researching, you spent two years kind of getting into it.
Speaker C:And then I assume you made your first very small batch.
Speaker C:Like what was this?
Speaker E:It was a very small batch.
Speaker E:Our first still was 250 gallons still.
Speaker E:And you say 250 gallons, which sounds like a lot, lot, but that still wouldn't turn out but what, maybe 30 gallons at a time of finished, finished product, Something like that.
Speaker E:We now have an 800 gallon still so we can make, you know, 100 plus gallons at a time.
Speaker E:But yeah.
Speaker E:So when that turned for we were, we started racking up, you know, some of Best of Columbia, best of the State, those kind of things.
Speaker E: And you know,: Speaker E:And then we started entering our spirits into those international competitions.
Speaker E:San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York.
Speaker E: ,: Speaker E:After, after kind of COVID The COVID craze settled down just a little bit.
Speaker E:And I'll let you kind of talk to some of those medals that we won.
Speaker D:But we were so honestly, there's several that, you know, we surprised everybody, including ourselves with.
Speaker D:I'll give you just a couple of highlights.
Speaker D:So you mentioned low water vodka.
Speaker D:It won a double gold medal for the South's best in 23.
Speaker D:And no, my memory is not this good.
Speaker D:I'm looking at the back wall here, so bear with me.
Speaker D:Then High cotton, kind of the biggest award I think we've won to date.
Speaker D:The high cotton single barrel, 105 proof bourbon.
Speaker D:One best of class and best of division at LA International.
Speaker D:That was 24, so pretty big, pretty big competition.
Speaker D:And then to say, hey, this is the best bottle of bourbon here out of South Carolina.
Speaker E:That is what, that's what Baron Greg have in there.
Speaker D:That's what we're drinking.
Speaker A:People who enjoy spirits often have a favorite type of liquor.
Speaker A:High cotton, straight bourbon and the low.
Speaker C:Water vodka, which by the way, guys.
Speaker A:That is my favorite goes in all my drinks.
Speaker E:My favorite is probably going to be whiskey.
Speaker E:It doesn't take much, but I like whiskey.
Speaker A:I actually don't think I've tried this.
Speaker C:Have you not?
Speaker C:No, I. I've got peach at home right now.
Speaker E:Okay.
Speaker E:Okay.
Speaker B:There are several flavors of moonshine that I like, but straight moonshine is something that I don't think I could ever get used to.
Speaker B:For the most part, the spirits that I drink that are distilled wind up being the bourbons or whiskeys that sit in barrels for months or years before they are available for purchase.
Speaker A:And it's the special flavors.
Speaker C:Like they are just the mint one.
Speaker A:Even like, I didn't think I was.
Speaker C:Gonna like that and I totally dig it.
Speaker E:Oh, was it the peach mint or the mint Jewel?
Speaker C:Peach mint.
Speaker E:Okay.
Speaker C:Like, I was like, I don't know.
Speaker A:That peach and mint go together.
Speaker E:It'll come back.
Speaker A:And speaking of different flavors, if you've ever wondered about flavored spirits, don't worry.
Speaker A:We asked Craig and Meredith all about it as well as other federal regulations.
Speaker C:Speaking of ingredients, what was the original recipe the one that you got from.
Speaker D:Lamar, it was 2/3 corn, 1/3 oats.
Speaker D:And we used whole oats, which are oats are pretty unusual for commercial distillation.
Speaker D:The starch conversion really sucks.
Speaker D:Doesn't make much alcohol, but it does the kind of smooth out the alcohol that all the corn makes.
Speaker D:Corn's the workhorse really the whole industry, if we're being honest, it makes a lot of alcohol pretty sweet flavor profile, can have a pretty good bite when it's young.
Speaker D:So.
Speaker D:But lamar's recipe was 2/3, 2/3 oats or 2/3 corn, 1/3 oats.
Speaker D:It's labeled moonshine.
Speaker D:So you can cheat.
Speaker D:It's got a bunch of sugar in it to help it ferment and boost your alcohol production.
Speaker D:And that's pretty much it.
Speaker C:And do y' all still kind of stick true to that today or.
Speaker D:Yeah, for moonshine.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker D:And the, the real secret was we used lemon juice as a ph adjustment.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker D:Which most people who, who just make moonshine at their house or in the backwoods or whatever, they don't ever even talk about ph adjustment.
Speaker D:But that was, that was his secret.
Speaker D:That was his secret and it worked, no doubt.
Speaker B:Well, if they're making it at home, I imagine that and they're not adjusting ph, they're probably blind anyway.
Speaker C:So did you guys start out doing strictly moonshine or.
Speaker D:Yes.
Speaker D:So here's we talked about.
Speaker D:We don't have investors, certainly Meredith nor I need come from money.
Speaker D:So you got to have a cash flow product up front.
Speaker D:We didn't start with a mountain of cash to just burn through.
Speaker D:So in the distilling world, you only have a few products options for an immediate cash flow product.
Speaker D:You've got moonshine, you've got gin, which I hate, it tastes like a pine tree, but whatever.
Speaker D:And then you've got vodka.
Speaker D:When we started out, our still was not going to make vodka.
Speaker D:Like it was a very simple direct fired pot still similar to what you would find kind of out in the woods, but, you know, inside and cleaner and that kind of thing.
Speaker D:But it was not going to make vodka, so.
Speaker D:And Jen, I hate.
Speaker D:So we're kind of out here in rural Lexington County.
Speaker D:Moonshine fits anyway and that's where we, you know, where we kind of got our start.
Speaker D:And that's all we sold for a while was moonshine.
Speaker C:Were you doing the flavored moonshines back then or it was just straight up.
Speaker D:So on day one we opened up with straight moonshine, period.
Speaker E:Because each product, each different flavor of moonshine per se.
Speaker E:Has to have a federal approval.
Speaker E:And so the only thing we had approval for at that time was our straight, unflavored moonshine.
Speaker B:And what is it?
Speaker B:What, as far as, like, what the federal approval is, are we talking like a proof, a percentage of alcohol in it?
Speaker B:What does it take to get federal approval?
Speaker D:So there's.
Speaker D:There's really two steps.
Speaker D:First, you have to have a formula approval.
Speaker D:So you tell them how you're going to make this flavored spirit.
Speaker D:Now, you do get to skip the formula approval if the spirit you're making meets the federal definition of, you know, predefined category, like straight bourbon whiskey.
Speaker D:If you're just going to put straight bourbon whiskey on your label, you don't have to tell them how you make it because they give you a long list of requirements.
Speaker D:And by putting the label on the bottle, you're saying, I here too swear I meet this definition.
Speaker F:So you've got to get formal approval.
Speaker D:If you don't meet one of those categories.
Speaker D:And then you have to get the label approval.
Speaker D:And the label has, you know, several requirements, your branding and all that, but then total volume.
Speaker D:So Whether it's a 750 milliliter or 1.75 or whatever proof, and there's pretty tight requirements around stated proof versus actual proof in the bottle.
Speaker D:The easiest way is you better be dead on.
Speaker D:And then basically what the statement of content is.
Speaker D:And they'll give you what you have to put for the statement of content based on your formula.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:So do they ever say no?
Speaker C:They're like, no, you can't.
Speaker C:You can't make that.
Speaker D:Yes, they do.
Speaker D:Actually, it kind of depends on what you're putting in there.
Speaker D:So there's a whole bunch of different ways to go about this.
Speaker D:You can either use, like, single ingredient natural sources.
Speaker D:So like our honeymoon shop, it is just, you know, essentially moonshine with raw honey mixed into it.
Speaker E:What's in my glass?
Speaker D:Right, There's a couple of those sitting around now.
Speaker D:So that one's pretty simple.
Speaker D:And then you can also go with these approved formulations.
Speaker D:So the flavoring agent itself has already been analyzed and approved.
Speaker D:And you say, you know, here's the.
Speaker D:Here's the flavoring product I'm going to use, and here's how much of it I'm going to use.
Speaker D:And you know, some of them it doesn't matter how much you use, and some of them it does if it's.
Speaker D:If it's like an artificial flavor.
Speaker D:A lot of times there's limits on how much you can put In.
Speaker D:So try to stay away from those, honestly.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:So you guys have to submit it and then find out.
Speaker C:So you don't make it first.
Speaker C:Like, you have to wait until you get your.
Speaker D:I mean, you can make it first.
Speaker D:You just can't sell it.
Speaker D:So we don't make it.
Speaker E:Small test batches.
Speaker E:It's a lot of R D and somebody has to taste them.
Speaker E:But, you know, it's a tough job.
Speaker E:We do it.
Speaker C:Someone's got to do it.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:And you guys have a bunch of limited release flavors.
Speaker C:So, like, that's one of the things.
Speaker C:Every week, I feel like you're on Facebook and on Instagram, you're like, hey, we've got this new limited.
Speaker C:And I'm like, I want that too, but I don't need to have 72.
Speaker A:Bottles of liquor in my house.
Speaker B:We talked about that earlier.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:I'll be back later this month for.
Speaker A:Some more because it's Sunday.
Speaker C:But.
Speaker C:But how do y' all kind of decide?
Speaker C:So, like, when you were like, I want to do, like, the s'.
Speaker A:Mores.
Speaker C:Like, I want to do s'.
Speaker E:Mores.
Speaker C:Like, how did you do s'?
Speaker B:Mores?
Speaker E:S'.
Speaker A:Mores.
Speaker C:That's not yours.
Speaker C:I mean, that's yours, but that's not them.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker E:So we tried a bunch of different, different flavors.
Speaker E:You know, we've tried s', mores, We've tried strawberry.
Speaker E:We've tried toasted marshmallow, mango habanero.
Speaker E:That may or may not come out later, possibly in August, possibly August.
Speaker E:So.
Speaker E:And we just mix them up and see if we like them again.
Speaker E:It's hard job.
Speaker E:Somebody's got to do it.
Speaker E:You got to taste them all.
Speaker E:We have made some duds.
Speaker E:Don't get me wrong.
Speaker E:We have tried and tried and tried for a lemon, and I made one that tasted remarkably what I believe Pine Sol may taste like, which was not a great flavor.
Speaker B:Washed out.
Speaker B:I had my mouth washed out with soap plenty of times.
Speaker B:I get it.
Speaker E:We're still trying for that lemon.
Speaker E:So.
Speaker E:But anyway, so, you know, some of them are duds.
Speaker E:Some of them are great.
Speaker E:And the great ones we submit for approval and then they hit the shelves.
Speaker B:So when you're trying to come up with different, different flavors for what would potentially be like a new or a limited release.
Speaker B:Talked about toasted marshmallow.
Speaker B:Do you literally toast marshmallows and mash that in with the.
Speaker B:Is that literally the process?
Speaker B:Because again, I watch Moonshiners every season, and they will take old blueberry muffins and mash and mash that in to get that flavor.
Speaker B:Is that really what the process is?
Speaker B:Okay, don't.
Speaker F:It is not that romantic.
Speaker B:It's all synthetic.
Speaker B:No, I'm just kidding.
Speaker E:So I will say, you know that any flavor you put in before you distill, you're going to get a very muted flavor out of the distillate, out of the liquor that comes out.
Speaker E:It's very, very little flavor.
Speaker E:Years ago we made strawberry brandy and it was out of local strawberries.
Speaker E:All the strawberries that were too big, too ripe for them to sell.
Speaker E:We got gallons and five gallon buckets full and fermented those.
Speaker E:It looked, it was just this red, red, red, deep red color distilled that the alcohol that came out was crystal clear, as it should be.
Speaker E:And you could get like strawberry hints on the back end.
Speaker E:But it was, it wasn't like you were biting into a strawberry.
Speaker E:And so I think that's a common misconception that people think, you know, whatever you put in, you're really going to get this.
Speaker E:If you want that flavor pop afterwards, you're going to have to add additional flavor to it or you just won't get the same.
Speaker B:It's interesting the ideas that that can come up for what you potentially match alcohol or whiskey with and for something like, I see some things on shelves that just don't make sense to me.
Speaker B:Like the idea of avocado.
Speaker B:Avocado doesn't have a whole lot of flavor in my head.
Speaker B:So it's like, how do I even know?
Speaker B:Like, right.
Speaker C:Just trust us.
Speaker A:Isn't there?
Speaker B:Yeah, you put a picture of an.
Speaker E:Avocado, we waved it past and it nowadays like that.
Speaker A:Well, guys, I hope you've learned something new today.
Speaker A:If you're local to South Carolina, definitely stop by Hollow Creek Distillery in Leesville and say hey to the folks there.
Speaker A:Go in for a free tasting, assuming you're over 21 and a tour, and tell them that Amy sent you.
Speaker A:Because of the nature of the welcome to Wonderland podcast, there were so many parts of the full interview that I couldn't work into this episode.
Speaker A:So I strongly encourage you to check out the entire interview on my YouTube channel.
Speaker A:Here's everyone.
Speaker A:Until next time, be safe, be kind, and stay curious.
Speaker A:The welcome to Wonderland podcast is copyrighted by Amie Bland and is distributed by Big Media, llc.
Speaker A:This podcast is recorded in and around Columbia, South Carolina.
Speaker A:Any thoughts or opinions are those of the hostess unless otherwise indicated.
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Speaker A:Check out the welcome to Wonderland linktree at linktree to find out where to join me on Facebook, TikTok, Instagram and more.
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Speaker A:The All About Nothing podcast with Barrett and Zach is the OG podcast that got us all started.
Speaker A:Black, White and Blue in the south with Dr. Jamil Brooks and Bill Kemmler gives us a look at blue politics and a red state.
Speaker A:What the pod was that with Kerry, Barrett and Zach will make you laugh out loud as they watch the best and the worst of what the Internet has to offer.
Speaker A:For a look at politics in South Carolina through the eyes of three young women, check out Politically Speaking, a new addition to the big media collection.
Speaker A:Thanks for listening.
Speaker B:I mean, how do you want to introduce.
Speaker B:Do you want to.
Speaker C:I thought you were just going to do your intro later.
Speaker B:Well, I know.
Speaker B:I mean, as far as, like, do you.
Speaker B:Do you want to say who you are first and then I'll say who I am.
Speaker B:We don't normally do these episodes in.
Speaker B:In tandem like this, so I was.
Speaker D:Kind of wondering how it's gonna work.
Speaker C:You'll be fine.
Speaker B:I just have to sit up straight.
Speaker D:I've got terrible posture.
Speaker D:Sorry.
Speaker C:You want.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'll start.
Speaker C:Because otherwise I'd be like, you know, that's fine.
Speaker C:You start.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:I gotta put my glasses on.
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker F:This is.
Speaker E:I have glasses.
Speaker E:I don't wear them.
Speaker E:The doctor said I only need to wear them if I want to be able to see, so I just.
Speaker E:I just don't.
Speaker B:All right, here we go.
Speaker B:In 3, 2, 1.
Speaker B:Welcome to a very special episode of the All About Nothing podcast as well.
Speaker B:Welcome to.
Speaker B:No, sorry.
Speaker B:Welcome.
Speaker B:I'm not doing this again, so why.
Speaker C:Don'T you just tell me you had something.
Speaker B:Welcome to one.
Speaker B:I do have something written.
Speaker B:I always have something written out.
Speaker B:All right, three, two, one.
